Graduating next week from Drexel University (Philly) low-residency MFA. We are only the fourth graduating class. I knew I would never write a novel without this discipline (and investing the $$$). It was 50-50 craft and business, with three residencies - including one in NY. One of the electives required that we write and upload 4,500 words a week. And that’s how I wrote an 89,000 word novel that I am now querying and starting to plot out the next one. In the case of low-residency program, you get out of it what you put into it. I wrung every dollar and opportunity out of it.
I think the "get out of it what you put into it" attitude is essential in full res MFAs too. Ultimately, it is an arts degree so you're going to graduate as long as you attend classes. There aren't exams or anything. You won't be forced to do lots of work. But you have the ability to push yourself and get a lot out of it. I'd recommend (to anyone applying) to really look at the other stuff a program offers. Do they have groups? A literary magazine you can staff? Reading series? Internship programs? Etc.
Wow and congrats. If you got the time and money I see absolutely nothing wrong with an MFA program. It sounds like fun, and you got a novel out of it? Excellent. If I may ask, are they going to help with the agent?
Well we met a lot of agents over the course of the program, at residencies and during zoom classes. So they are on my list if they are open to queries. Also a Drexel alum founded a small press and it is running a contest in collaboration with Drexel - open to students and alumni only. A book contract will be offered. So that’s a pretty big deal! Plus we got a lot of business advice.
We did learn that some of the more famous programs never touched on the business - e.g., getting published - and there was still some snobbery about genre fiction. We learned that from people who went through those programs.
As a traveller, I looked for a low-residency or online MFA program. I was delighted to find Lindenwood University in St. Charles, MO, and their online MFA in Creative Writing. I've found that the program offers great opportunities to learn and improve my reading, editing, and writing skills - and they offer a 50% grant for students 60+ years of age! Bonus! Students can declare an area of focus, such as fiction, non-fiction, poetry, and YA/MG as well. I highly recommend it.
I'm starting at Warren Wilson this July. One of the big draws for me was the chance to read widely and thoughtfully with the requirement that I produce lengthy annotations on whatever I read. You can do that on your own, of course, but the structure helps. Also I tend to write very slowly; I'm hoping that 20 pages of fiction due every three weeks will force me to speed up...
Have fun at Warren Wilson, Ethan! I graduated a decade ago. It's true that your experience depends greatly on the supervisors you're matched with, but they change every semester so even an iffy pairing is timeboxed, and you'll learn a lot about your own preferences and intuitions when two of them give you directly conflicting advice! The program is well designed to help you use reading to solve specific problems in your own work, whatever you decide those are. There's also a good alumni network with a small, friendly annual conference.
Wow, it’s great to hear that! I was wondering if there might be WW alum on this Substack. It seems like an amazing program and community. Have you been to the conferences?
Yes, a couple of times. The ones I attended were good. As one of the organizers told me: "Everything we liked about the residencies, minus anything we didn't."
I enjoyed the callout to Station Eleven. Back a decade or more, I was a frequent (and sometimes grumpy) commenter at "The Millions" lit site, and came into contact with Emily Mandel (the author), a terrific person.
Ironically, last year, I recommended her novel to someone who declined, saying the whole dystopia genre was "overdone." I remember learning about all the YEARS Ms. Mandel worked on Station Eleven long before 2014 while she held down a fulltime job... working in obscurity and from deep within her own mind. She was indeed the First Farmer of what some later dismissed as over-tilled ground!
Yes, that's the thing about trends in publishing! They come and go quickly but writing and publishing takes a long time. The books that seem "on trend" were typically written before it was a trend.
I also remember doing an event with Mandel for that book and she described Cormac McCarthy's The Road as a major influence and IIRC what opened her eyes to the literary possibility of dystopian fiction.
Love Station Eleven (and all of Mandel's work). Also love The Road. And I agree, the trends come and go very quickly. I'm in no way placing my work in the same echelon, but in 2014 & 2015 dystopian novel was being shopped by my then-agent and it was rejected by a few publishers who liked the manuscript but were worried about the trend having run its course. Can't say I agreed then, and certainly didn't change my tune in the years that followed (as more and more dystopian fiction titles and their adaptations take off). But hey, there's only so much within the author's control.
thank you for sharing this anecdote about Mandel—super interesting! I find arguments that something is too trendy and overdone a bit obnoxious, tbh, because
(a) basically nothing is new, lol, every work that resonates with contemporary readers is simultaneously part of a new trend (that's why it resonates so much at this particular moment) AND engaging with a much deeper literary history (because it also resonates with much older human concerns and anxieties)…and
(b) if we see a "trend" in publishing, it was probably years in the making (people writing their autofiction or dystopian fiction for several years before getting an agent, publisher, etc etc), and we typically only identify it as a "trend" because of the marketing, PR, critical audience, etc that retrospectively packages up a bunch of writers with distinctive projects into some overarching branding term like "dystopian sci-fi"
I don't mind rejection really, but my submission character, "AI ROGER" is a more sensitive soul and was heartbroken to have been treated as fungible and/or generic. He has crawled under his virtual desk with a plate of pierogis he made over the weekend and is virtually stress eating, but I am sure he will buck up, as he is a good lad. I think I will take him to the DC zoo to visit the new baby pandas when they get their visiting hours set up.
I hope I spelled Emily's name correctly. Will come back after work to check. : )
I am also a SuperFan of one of the other seminal dystopic landscapes, the indescribably original "Lives of the Monster Dogs." Again, will come back after work to check on author name and correct spelling.
This is good advice, no doubt, but it misses the real significance/critique of the mfa program today. This is how a lot of writers are actually making their living. In fact, this is lurking there in this post. If the big question underlying this is "how do we fund the arts?" then MFA's tell us the answer is this cycle of the successful mfa students recieving acclaim -- but not sales -- and then making their living teaching the next round of students to produce more fiction which might recieve acclaim, but not sales. This is crude and there are more sophisticated glosses you can put on it. And this is something the student should probably also be aware of.
I left a career in academia (math) and went into industry. A friend asked me why I didn't try making it as a writer and I told them all about how long it takes to write and publish a novel, but the thing that made him agree that my industry job was a good idea was telling him that in all likelihood trying to be a professional writer might just put me back on a (worse part of) the academica job market.
I certainly wrote this perspective from the POV of writers considering attending MFAs or not. There are other questions about the roles of MFA programs that you bring up. I think that issue is interesting and multifaceted. I understand the critique of programs producing writers no one reads who teach others who write books few read. At the same time, I'd say academia has become a home for literature out of necessity. Academia, academic presses, and non-profit small presses are the home for most translation, poetry, experimental fiction, and other stuff that doesn't sell. The big 5 would publish little of it if all that mattered was sales. But I also like a lot of translated literature, poetry, and experimental fiction so am happy it has a home at all.
I agree students should be aware of the realities of the marketplace. The one thing I'd argue is I don't think that MFAs have much relation to the overall decline in book sales. People read less because of all the obvious things, especially more free or cheap entertainment options from video games to social media to streaming TV. MFA graduates produce books that sell well as frequently as anyone else. It's just not that many books of any kind sell well these days.
(Obviously I'd prefer that poetry and experimental fiction and what not sold so well that they didn't need to have a haven in academia. Or else that we had a more robust government support for the arts and a healthier safety net that made it easier to exist as an artist outside of commerce. But neither of those things is likely to happen any time soon...)
I had a couple of situations where I received pushback from MFA instructors and fellow students who thought the elements of genre in my submissions were unworthy of serious "literary fiction" but actually found a ton of value in using the pushback as an opportunity to clarify my thinking about why I was making the choices I was making. It helped me solidify my position.
Also, within a couple of years of my graduation, three of the instructors at my MFA program had found a fair amount of success writing books with genre elements.
Yes my experience was about the same when I went. I had a paragraph on this that I deleted, but 20 years it is true MFA programs were pretty hostile to genre writing and they aren't anymore. I'd argue this is MFA programs following the larger cultural trends--the shift of speculative work getting prestige acceptability in film (LOTR), TV (Watchmen, GOT, etc. ), and literature (The Road, Station Eleven, etc.).
Agree. I was there right as the tide was turning a little, I think. I mean, we're all there in the cafeteria talking with some of the instructors about how much we love Chekhov, but then Bram Stoker gets a mention and you can see a gleam appear in the eye of one of them. The genre secret handshake.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
So for what it's worth, I think you're kind of burying the lede here. My eye is drawn a seeming contradiction between these two quotes:
"anyone want to give me a tenure track job?😭"
&
"The only thing an MFA can provide that you can’t do on your own is a terminal degree that allows you to teach."
When I decided to get an MFA in my early twenties, a big part of the reason was that I thought it would connect me to academia in a way that would be professionally useful, regardless of how much helped me with the publishing end of things. However, even if you get teaching experience TA'ing during your MFA (which I and most other Columbia students didn't because of how CU's program is set up), that teaching experience will only qualify you to adjunct teaching comp -- not creative writing -- with no clear path to the tenure track. The only way those CW jobs become even possibly accessible is with a prestigious publishing history and even then the tenure ones are especially elusive.
I say this because I feel like a lot of students are attracted to MFA programs because they seem like a path to teaching a subject they like, as a day job, to support a writing career. And in my experience that's not really true. I agree that MFA programs can be totally valuable in developing one's craft and finding lifelong beta readers, but I think the way that they are still framed for many undergrads is out of touch.
Yes, I agree that getting an MFA so you can teach is not a good bet. The academic job market in general is just awful. All adjuncts everywhere in every discipline, and creative writing is certainly no exception. I wasn't saying the second quote as a selling point but just noting it is maybe literally the only part of an MFA that one can't recreate on their own with time and effort.
But agree it's worth emphasizing that the MFA is no automatic path to a fulltime teaching job and in general, no matter what path to academia you try, it is a dire time to want to be a college professor.
What's especially sad here is that as far as I understand it, MFA jobs are actually one of the only growing humanities jobs out there and it's still this dire. Somehow far worse for history/philosophy/literature etc. PhDs.
I guess my argument is even a little broader than that though: I don't think that the MFA gives you a much better chance at the impossible cw teaching job market than you would have just with publishing fiction at a high level. Obviously this is beyond anecdotal but for years after I graduated from Columbia, even after I published my first novel with the (now disgraced but then well regarded) small press ChZine Publications, I couldn't get *any* kind of creative writing teaching gig; it was only after my second book was under contract at an imprint of PRH that I got hired at Sackett Street and then elsewhere.
Meanwhile, when I subsequently started adjuncting in the MFA program at Sarah Lawrence, I had two colleagues (Maria Dahvana Headley and Lara Elena Donnelly) who are amazing writers with prestigious & impressive publishing histories... but who don't have MFAs. 5 years later and none of us have tenure track positions. Plus, more broadly, creative writing PhD programs are starting to proliferate, which throws in another potential competitive advantage from a different angle. So I really think this idea of an MFA as a terminal degree that allows you to teach when you otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity is pretty misleading.
To me, the best argument for doing an MFA is just that it gives you so many of the things that as you point out, you *could* find on your own, in one place: mentorship, feedback, readings and other literary events, and community. Which isn't nothing, especially if you're fully funded (or if like me, you have a generous family willing to foot the bill). I'm glad I have my MFA. But it isn't much of an academic credential.
I think we largely agree here! The MFA does technically count as a terminal degree, but as you note mostly means you can teach adjunct comp. (I taught adjunct comp before I had a book out... although it paid awful and isn't really something I'd recommend.) I do think it probably gives you a leg up for creative writing jobs which yes can be overcome by publishing fiction at a high level. If two people competing for the same MFA job with equal high level resumes, I imagine the one with an advanced degree gets that job more often than not. But that's a small advantage that won't ever come up for most writers. Especially those of us looking for jobs in NYC.
Long story short, definitely would not recommend getting an MFA as a path to fulltime academic career.
My agent in 2014-2015 told me that NOT getting an MFA, contrary to popular belief (and rhetoric at the time), made me more marketable as an author. Did others share his point of view then? I have no idea. But it's something I've certainly held onto.
I remember thinking there was such a bias against MFA programs that I didn't included it on my lit mag submissions cover letter for years. But I'm not sure how true it was or not. Some people have a bias against them certainly. Probably some have a bias for them. I think such biases mostly play into whether or not an editor or agent will give you a serious look. I think it's unlikely to be a deciding factor though after the look. If they love a book, they're not going to turn it down because you have/don't have an MFA. And if they dislike the book, they're not going to buy it because of one's degrees.
Exactly. At the time I was 24/25 and not having a lot of luck in the hunt for steady, reliable day jobs, so I was seriously considering an MFA. Years removed, I feel like what it CAN communicate to people (who are looking for its proof) is your seriousness as a writer. If someone can see that you have a BA in creative writing or English, and then an MFA as well, it shows, at the very least, dedication to the craft, and also a strong likelihood that that individual knows something about the industry and can speak its language. It guarantees nothing, but in some contexts, it might be able to nudge open a door.
I don't know how rambly I'm getting haha but one more quick anecdote that has stuck with me regarding this topic: when I was an undergrad, I was talking with a professor of mine about the thoughts I'd been having about pursuing an MFA. She, a 65ish poet, told me that if I'm going to do get an MFA I should do so decades from then. "Go get arrested," she said. "Get divorced. Go on a fishing boat. Live a little, you know? Education's not going anywhere, but your time and energy are finite."
"bias against MFA programs" I found the opposite. If I may share, back in about 2015 I decided, after publishing in many, many smaller lit mags, to concentrate on the the top twenty or so "prestige" journals (New England Review, Gettysburg Review, etc.). But after a period of heavy submitting I sensed something wrong: I was not getting a single acceptance. At that time (maybe it's still possible) you could see online the bios of contributors. Checking this opened my eyes. Besides name or published writers, ALL the contributors were connected to academia, including MFA programs. My take? Space was too valuable to be taken up by those not in the industry.
Thanks for going over all this. As a debut author, we get vetted for more than the story by agents. Doesn’t the MFA help me through the eye of that agent needle?
I think having an MFA shows a certain level of seriousness perhaps. But I think it probably helps more in the first stages. Basically, an MFA from a good school will maybe make an agent take a closer look at your work. (So will having publications or a "platform" etc.) But I doubt it is ever the deciding factor. If they like the work, they aren't going to reject it because you don't have an MFA. And if they dislike the work, they aren't going to take you on as a client even if you have an Iowa MFA.
I guess I should add that some MFA programs do provide you direct contact with agents. Like there might be panels with agents or other events. So that can certainly help.
The unsolicited query is the camel thru the eye of the agent needle : ) I don't care who you are or what you got, if you're a stranger, they ain't opening that email
And so it’s the Turtles All the Way Down dilemma then? But in reverse. You’re nobody until somebody knows you, it seems you say. That kind of agent just doesn’t want to be first to know you. A desperate kind of living, finding people to represent.
Not quite sure what you mean, but what I'm saying is the agent has plenty of manuscripts. These arrive from industry insiders like established writers, academics, social media types, news and entertainment pros, friends, family, even other agents(!) There's just no reason in the world to mess with the hundreds of unsolicited queries arriving weekly from outsiders, rank amateurs who almost certainly can't write anyway.
That sounds pretty bleak. Find us some hope, because there are many, many unpublished writers with immense talent. I Have Arrived Already is not a strategy for the nascent career.
Ron, we writers are in this together. But honesty is paramount. Hope? A. Become a superb writer. B. Position yourself. Let's not forget there's nothing new here. Successful artists have always cultivated those who can help.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
Interesting. Thanks. I was put off doing an MFA (London, England) by the ideological politics involved. Couple of things bother me. I don't want to spend time arguing whether or not I should write something because of someone else's 'ethics' instead of how good it is or isn't. And the other was, an information video introducing the course. A Chinese student telling of how the reading list is 'decolonised' and absolutely nothing else about the course.
Before anyone accuses me of ignorance, some recent books I enjoyed are African Psycho - Alain Mabanckou (Congo), The Blind Owl - Sadegh Hedayat (Persia), Iraqi Christ - Hassan Blasim (Iraq), and others. So, as you can see, I'm well read of writers around the world off my own back, and study them in my own time. But if I want to study writing fiction in English, in England, why would I want to study overseas writers? What is that for?
Universities get double the money for rich overseas students. It's commercial, disguised as virtue signalling, which if that's what it really was about, I'd be just as disappointed. Virtue signalling to conform to ideological politics is meaningless to me. The video doesn't even tell you what writers you'll be studying. It tells you nothing but that the reading list is 'decolonised'. Great.
I'll add that what I said about not wasting time arguing about whether or not I ought to write something instead of its artistic merit, is not necessarily the down to the course or tutor/professor, but more from the other students, who often seem only able to view anything through a lens of ignorant ideology, and will insist a man can't write a woman protagonist or some nonsense about offending some non-existent person.
I have no interest in this, and it has no place in a workshop that should be a space for discussing and critiquing the work's merits and problems in an artistic sense, not morally, or judging an author by the behaviour of one of his characters. I can't be around that kind of idiocy.
Same for me re ideological politics. I don’t watch tv/read media/, I filter out what I see on sm, so to pay for the program where I’ll be inevitably dragged into this type of debates (both external and internal) is a huge NO for me.
I love to discover new voices in literature and I love the freedom of choice I have in self-conducted discoveries/research/studies.
Yeah, same, I don't watch news or suffer the conformist political ideologies of left or right. I was relieved when the middle-class ideological, judgemental, self-righteousness, prudishness of the Christians and right-wing were finally abandoned in the 90s, so I'm especially even more revolted to see it return under the guise of 'leftists' and Muslims now. I have no time for it, and the idea of paying to spend my time with such conformist fools (who amusingly believe they are rebels!), is abhorrent to me, and what's worse, they'd be wasting my learning time instead of critiquing the artistic merit of my work. Ideas like appropriation in literature are absurd. If you can't write outside your experience, all that's left is memoir and fiction is dead. Idiocy.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
Graduating next week from Drexel University (Philly) low-residency MFA. We are only the fourth graduating class. I knew I would never write a novel without this discipline (and investing the $$$). It was 50-50 craft and business, with three residencies - including one in NY. One of the electives required that we write and upload 4,500 words a week. And that’s how I wrote an 89,000 word novel that I am now querying and starting to plot out the next one. In the case of low-residency program, you get out of it what you put into it. I wrung every dollar and opportunity out of it.
I think the "get out of it what you put into it" attitude is essential in full res MFAs too. Ultimately, it is an arts degree so you're going to graduate as long as you attend classes. There aren't exams or anything. You won't be forced to do lots of work. But you have the ability to push yourself and get a lot out of it. I'd recommend (to anyone applying) to really look at the other stuff a program offers. Do they have groups? A literary magazine you can staff? Reading series? Internship programs? Etc.
Wow and congrats. If you got the time and money I see absolutely nothing wrong with an MFA program. It sounds like fun, and you got a novel out of it? Excellent. If I may ask, are they going to help with the agent?
Well we met a lot of agents over the course of the program, at residencies and during zoom classes. So they are on my list if they are open to queries. Also a Drexel alum founded a small press and it is running a contest in collaboration with Drexel - open to students and alumni only. A book contract will be offered. So that’s a pretty big deal! Plus we got a lot of business advice.
Excellent Lee Ann. Writers are famously unaware of the industry. If an MFA does nothing else, getting them ready for publication is worth it.
We did learn that some of the more famous programs never touched on the business - e.g., getting published - and there was still some snobbery about genre fiction. We learned that from people who went through those programs.
As a traveller, I looked for a low-residency or online MFA program. I was delighted to find Lindenwood University in St. Charles, MO, and their online MFA in Creative Writing. I've found that the program offers great opportunities to learn and improve my reading, editing, and writing skills - and they offer a 50% grant for students 60+ years of age! Bonus! Students can declare an area of focus, such as fiction, non-fiction, poetry, and YA/MG as well. I highly recommend it.
John, do they still operate that grant? Would love to hear more. From the US, but live in NZ, so online would be a must. And just turned 60! Thanks
Yes - it is active for me right now. No citizenship or competition - just be admitted and be 60+.
I love the program - follow the best professors and have a blast.
Good timing and thanks for this post, Lincoln!
I'm starting at Warren Wilson this July. One of the big draws for me was the chance to read widely and thoughtfully with the requirement that I produce lengthy annotations on whatever I read. You can do that on your own, of course, but the structure helps. Also I tend to write very slowly; I'm hoping that 20 pages of fiction due every three weeks will force me to speed up...
Enjoy Swannanoa!
Thanks!
Have fun at Warren Wilson, Ethan! I graduated a decade ago. It's true that your experience depends greatly on the supervisors you're matched with, but they change every semester so even an iffy pairing is timeboxed, and you'll learn a lot about your own preferences and intuitions when two of them give you directly conflicting advice! The program is well designed to help you use reading to solve specific problems in your own work, whatever you decide those are. There's also a good alumni network with a small, friendly annual conference.
Wow, it’s great to hear that! I was wondering if there might be WW alum on this Substack. It seems like an amazing program and community. Have you been to the conferences?
Yes, a couple of times. The ones I attended were good. As one of the organizers told me: "Everything we liked about the residencies, minus anything we didn't."
I enjoyed the callout to Station Eleven. Back a decade or more, I was a frequent (and sometimes grumpy) commenter at "The Millions" lit site, and came into contact with Emily Mandel (the author), a terrific person.
Ironically, last year, I recommended her novel to someone who declined, saying the whole dystopia genre was "overdone." I remember learning about all the YEARS Ms. Mandel worked on Station Eleven long before 2014 while she held down a fulltime job... working in obscurity and from deep within her own mind. She was indeed the First Farmer of what some later dismissed as over-tilled ground!
Yes, that's the thing about trends in publishing! They come and go quickly but writing and publishing takes a long time. The books that seem "on trend" were typically written before it was a trend.
I also remember doing an event with Mandel for that book and she described Cormac McCarthy's The Road as a major influence and IIRC what opened her eyes to the literary possibility of dystopian fiction.
Love Station Eleven (and all of Mandel's work). Also love The Road. And I agree, the trends come and go very quickly. I'm in no way placing my work in the same echelon, but in 2014 & 2015 dystopian novel was being shopped by my then-agent and it was rejected by a few publishers who liked the manuscript but were worried about the trend having run its course. Can't say I agreed then, and certainly didn't change my tune in the years that followed (as more and more dystopian fiction titles and their adaptations take off). But hey, there's only so much within the author's control.
Oh my goodness! What a small world. Thank you for your thoughtful response. Have a terrific day!
thank you for sharing this anecdote about Mandel—super interesting! I find arguments that something is too trendy and overdone a bit obnoxious, tbh, because
(a) basically nothing is new, lol, every work that resonates with contemporary readers is simultaneously part of a new trend (that's why it resonates so much at this particular moment) AND engaging with a much deeper literary history (because it also resonates with much older human concerns and anxieties)…and
(b) if we see a "trend" in publishing, it was probably years in the making (people writing their autofiction or dystopian fiction for several years before getting an agent, publisher, etc etc), and we typically only identify it as a "trend" because of the marketing, PR, critical audience, etc that retrospectively packages up a bunch of writers with distinctive projects into some overarching branding term like "dystopian sci-fi"
Appreciate the thoughtful response, Ms. Nguyen.
Dismissal of something as overdone bugs me. I think each work should be taken on its own merits.
I got rejected from a humor site for this item: https://medium.com/@ma_murphy_58/roger-cant-help-being-an-ai-a-tiny-etheric-tale-b0c025af3c65 reason being that "we have enough AI" content. Argh. I wrote this in friggin' February 2023 while job hunting and depressed!
I don't mind rejection really, but my submission character, "AI ROGER" is a more sensitive soul and was heartbroken to have been treated as fungible and/or generic. He has crawled under his virtual desk with a plate of pierogis he made over the weekend and is virtually stress eating, but I am sure he will buck up, as he is a good lad. I think I will take him to the DC zoo to visit the new baby pandas when they get their visiting hours set up.
Pffffffffft (still grumpy)
Cheers, M. A. Murphy ("Moe")
I hope I spelled Emily's name correctly. Will come back after work to check. : )
I am also a SuperFan of one of the other seminal dystopic landscapes, the indescribably original "Lives of the Monster Dogs." Again, will come back after work to check on author name and correct spelling.
Station Eleven by Emily St. John Mandel.
Lives of the Monster Dogs by Kirsten Bakis.
This is good advice, no doubt, but it misses the real significance/critique of the mfa program today. This is how a lot of writers are actually making their living. In fact, this is lurking there in this post. If the big question underlying this is "how do we fund the arts?" then MFA's tell us the answer is this cycle of the successful mfa students recieving acclaim -- but not sales -- and then making their living teaching the next round of students to produce more fiction which might recieve acclaim, but not sales. This is crude and there are more sophisticated glosses you can put on it. And this is something the student should probably also be aware of.
I left a career in academia (math) and went into industry. A friend asked me why I didn't try making it as a writer and I told them all about how long it takes to write and publish a novel, but the thing that made him agree that my industry job was a good idea was telling him that in all likelihood trying to be a professional writer might just put me back on a (worse part of) the academica job market.
I certainly wrote this perspective from the POV of writers considering attending MFAs or not. There are other questions about the roles of MFA programs that you bring up. I think that issue is interesting and multifaceted. I understand the critique of programs producing writers no one reads who teach others who write books few read. At the same time, I'd say academia has become a home for literature out of necessity. Academia, academic presses, and non-profit small presses are the home for most translation, poetry, experimental fiction, and other stuff that doesn't sell. The big 5 would publish little of it if all that mattered was sales. But I also like a lot of translated literature, poetry, and experimental fiction so am happy it has a home at all.
I agree students should be aware of the realities of the marketplace. The one thing I'd argue is I don't think that MFAs have much relation to the overall decline in book sales. People read less because of all the obvious things, especially more free or cheap entertainment options from video games to social media to streaming TV. MFA graduates produce books that sell well as frequently as anyone else. It's just not that many books of any kind sell well these days.
(Obviously I'd prefer that poetry and experimental fiction and what not sold so well that they didn't need to have a haven in academia. Or else that we had a more robust government support for the arts and a healthier safety net that made it easier to exist as an artist outside of commerce. But neither of those things is likely to happen any time soon...)
"programs producing writers no one reads who teach others who write books few read." This is actually very good absurdist writing : )
I had a couple of situations where I received pushback from MFA instructors and fellow students who thought the elements of genre in my submissions were unworthy of serious "literary fiction" but actually found a ton of value in using the pushback as an opportunity to clarify my thinking about why I was making the choices I was making. It helped me solidify my position.
Also, within a couple of years of my graduation, three of the instructors at my MFA program had found a fair amount of success writing books with genre elements.
Yes my experience was about the same when I went. I had a paragraph on this that I deleted, but 20 years it is true MFA programs were pretty hostile to genre writing and they aren't anymore. I'd argue this is MFA programs following the larger cultural trends--the shift of speculative work getting prestige acceptability in film (LOTR), TV (Watchmen, GOT, etc. ), and literature (The Road, Station Eleven, etc.).
Agree. I was there right as the tide was turning a little, I think. I mean, we're all there in the cafeteria talking with some of the instructors about how much we love Chekhov, but then Bram Stoker gets a mention and you can see a gleam appear in the eye of one of them. The genre secret handshake.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
So for what it's worth, I think you're kind of burying the lede here. My eye is drawn a seeming contradiction between these two quotes:
"anyone want to give me a tenure track job?😭"
&
"The only thing an MFA can provide that you can’t do on your own is a terminal degree that allows you to teach."
When I decided to get an MFA in my early twenties, a big part of the reason was that I thought it would connect me to academia in a way that would be professionally useful, regardless of how much helped me with the publishing end of things. However, even if you get teaching experience TA'ing during your MFA (which I and most other Columbia students didn't because of how CU's program is set up), that teaching experience will only qualify you to adjunct teaching comp -- not creative writing -- with no clear path to the tenure track. The only way those CW jobs become even possibly accessible is with a prestigious publishing history and even then the tenure ones are especially elusive.
I say this because I feel like a lot of students are attracted to MFA programs because they seem like a path to teaching a subject they like, as a day job, to support a writing career. And in my experience that's not really true. I agree that MFA programs can be totally valuable in developing one's craft and finding lifelong beta readers, but I think the way that they are still framed for many undergrads is out of touch.
Yes, I agree that getting an MFA so you can teach is not a good bet. The academic job market in general is just awful. All adjuncts everywhere in every discipline, and creative writing is certainly no exception. I wasn't saying the second quote as a selling point but just noting it is maybe literally the only part of an MFA that one can't recreate on their own with time and effort.
But agree it's worth emphasizing that the MFA is no automatic path to a fulltime teaching job and in general, no matter what path to academia you try, it is a dire time to want to be a college professor.
What's especially sad here is that as far as I understand it, MFA jobs are actually one of the only growing humanities jobs out there and it's still this dire. Somehow far worse for history/philosophy/literature etc. PhDs.
I guess my argument is even a little broader than that though: I don't think that the MFA gives you a much better chance at the impossible cw teaching job market than you would have just with publishing fiction at a high level. Obviously this is beyond anecdotal but for years after I graduated from Columbia, even after I published my first novel with the (now disgraced but then well regarded) small press ChZine Publications, I couldn't get *any* kind of creative writing teaching gig; it was only after my second book was under contract at an imprint of PRH that I got hired at Sackett Street and then elsewhere.
Meanwhile, when I subsequently started adjuncting in the MFA program at Sarah Lawrence, I had two colleagues (Maria Dahvana Headley and Lara Elena Donnelly) who are amazing writers with prestigious & impressive publishing histories... but who don't have MFAs. 5 years later and none of us have tenure track positions. Plus, more broadly, creative writing PhD programs are starting to proliferate, which throws in another potential competitive advantage from a different angle. So I really think this idea of an MFA as a terminal degree that allows you to teach when you otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity is pretty misleading.
To me, the best argument for doing an MFA is just that it gives you so many of the things that as you point out, you *could* find on your own, in one place: mentorship, feedback, readings and other literary events, and community. Which isn't nothing, especially if you're fully funded (or if like me, you have a generous family willing to foot the bill). I'm glad I have my MFA. But it isn't much of an academic credential.
I think we largely agree here! The MFA does technically count as a terminal degree, but as you note mostly means you can teach adjunct comp. (I taught adjunct comp before I had a book out... although it paid awful and isn't really something I'd recommend.) I do think it probably gives you a leg up for creative writing jobs which yes can be overcome by publishing fiction at a high level. If two people competing for the same MFA job with equal high level resumes, I imagine the one with an advanced degree gets that job more often than not. But that's a small advantage that won't ever come up for most writers. Especially those of us looking for jobs in NYC.
Long story short, definitely would not recommend getting an MFA as a path to fulltime academic career.
My agent in 2014-2015 told me that NOT getting an MFA, contrary to popular belief (and rhetoric at the time), made me more marketable as an author. Did others share his point of view then? I have no idea. But it's something I've certainly held onto.
I remember thinking there was such a bias against MFA programs that I didn't included it on my lit mag submissions cover letter for years. But I'm not sure how true it was or not. Some people have a bias against them certainly. Probably some have a bias for them. I think such biases mostly play into whether or not an editor or agent will give you a serious look. I think it's unlikely to be a deciding factor though after the look. If they love a book, they're not going to turn it down because you have/don't have an MFA. And if they dislike the book, they're not going to buy it because of one's degrees.
Exactly. At the time I was 24/25 and not having a lot of luck in the hunt for steady, reliable day jobs, so I was seriously considering an MFA. Years removed, I feel like what it CAN communicate to people (who are looking for its proof) is your seriousness as a writer. If someone can see that you have a BA in creative writing or English, and then an MFA as well, it shows, at the very least, dedication to the craft, and also a strong likelihood that that individual knows something about the industry and can speak its language. It guarantees nothing, but in some contexts, it might be able to nudge open a door.
I don't know how rambly I'm getting haha but one more quick anecdote that has stuck with me regarding this topic: when I was an undergrad, I was talking with a professor of mine about the thoughts I'd been having about pursuing an MFA. She, a 65ish poet, told me that if I'm going to do get an MFA I should do so decades from then. "Go get arrested," she said. "Get divorced. Go on a fishing boat. Live a little, you know? Education's not going anywhere, but your time and energy are finite."
Thought it to be lovely advice.
"bias against MFA programs" I found the opposite. If I may share, back in about 2015 I decided, after publishing in many, many smaller lit mags, to concentrate on the the top twenty or so "prestige" journals (New England Review, Gettysburg Review, etc.). But after a period of heavy submitting I sensed something wrong: I was not getting a single acceptance. At that time (maybe it's still possible) you could see online the bios of contributors. Checking this opened my eyes. Besides name or published writers, ALL the contributors were connected to academia, including MFA programs. My take? Space was too valuable to be taken up by those not in the industry.
Thanks for going over all this. As a debut author, we get vetted for more than the story by agents. Doesn’t the MFA help me through the eye of that agent needle?
I think having an MFA shows a certain level of seriousness perhaps. But I think it probably helps more in the first stages. Basically, an MFA from a good school will maybe make an agent take a closer look at your work. (So will having publications or a "platform" etc.) But I doubt it is ever the deciding factor. If they like the work, they aren't going to reject it because you don't have an MFA. And if they dislike the work, they aren't going to take you on as a client even if you have an Iowa MFA.
I guess I should add that some MFA programs do provide you direct contact with agents. Like there might be panels with agents or other events. So that can certainly help.
Certainly having an MFA will lead an agent to immediately regard the novel’s word count. They loathe debut work over 100k words, max
The unsolicited query is the camel thru the eye of the agent needle : ) I don't care who you are or what you got, if you're a stranger, they ain't opening that email
And so it’s the Turtles All the Way Down dilemma then? But in reverse. You’re nobody until somebody knows you, it seems you say. That kind of agent just doesn’t want to be first to know you. A desperate kind of living, finding people to represent.
Not quite sure what you mean, but what I'm saying is the agent has plenty of manuscripts. These arrive from industry insiders like established writers, academics, social media types, news and entertainment pros, friends, family, even other agents(!) There's just no reason in the world to mess with the hundreds of unsolicited queries arriving weekly from outsiders, rank amateurs who almost certainly can't write anyway.
That sounds pretty bleak. Find us some hope, because there are many, many unpublished writers with immense talent. I Have Arrived Already is not a strategy for the nascent career.
Ron, we writers are in this together. But honesty is paramount. Hope? A. Become a superb writer. B. Position yourself. Let's not forget there's nothing new here. Successful artists have always cultivated those who can help.
I agree! I read so so many authors I’d not come across in my degree!
Absolutely right on! Simple without being simplistic. (Your response sums up my MFA experience and post-experience.)
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
Interesting. Thanks. I was put off doing an MFA (London, England) by the ideological politics involved. Couple of things bother me. I don't want to spend time arguing whether or not I should write something because of someone else's 'ethics' instead of how good it is or isn't. And the other was, an information video introducing the course. A Chinese student telling of how the reading list is 'decolonised' and absolutely nothing else about the course.
Before anyone accuses me of ignorance, some recent books I enjoyed are African Psycho - Alain Mabanckou (Congo), The Blind Owl - Sadegh Hedayat (Persia), Iraqi Christ - Hassan Blasim (Iraq), and others. So, as you can see, I'm well read of writers around the world off my own back, and study them in my own time. But if I want to study writing fiction in English, in England, why would I want to study overseas writers? What is that for?
Universities get double the money for rich overseas students. It's commercial, disguised as virtue signalling, which if that's what it really was about, I'd be just as disappointed. Virtue signalling to conform to ideological politics is meaningless to me. The video doesn't even tell you what writers you'll be studying. It tells you nothing but that the reading list is 'decolonised'. Great.
I'll add that what I said about not wasting time arguing about whether or not I ought to write something instead of its artistic merit, is not necessarily the down to the course or tutor/professor, but more from the other students, who often seem only able to view anything through a lens of ignorant ideology, and will insist a man can't write a woman protagonist or some nonsense about offending some non-existent person.
I have no interest in this, and it has no place in a workshop that should be a space for discussing and critiquing the work's merits and problems in an artistic sense, not morally, or judging an author by the behaviour of one of his characters. I can't be around that kind of idiocy.
Same for me re ideological politics. I don’t watch tv/read media/, I filter out what I see on sm, so to pay for the program where I’ll be inevitably dragged into this type of debates (both external and internal) is a huge NO for me.
I love to discover new voices in literature and I love the freedom of choice I have in self-conducted discoveries/research/studies.
Same goes for my writing.
Yeah, same, I don't watch news or suffer the conformist political ideologies of left or right. I was relieved when the middle-class ideological, judgemental, self-righteousness, prudishness of the Christians and right-wing were finally abandoned in the 90s, so I'm especially even more revolted to see it return under the guise of 'leftists' and Muslims now. I have no time for it, and the idea of paying to spend my time with such conformist fools (who amusingly believe they are rebels!), is abhorrent to me, and what's worse, they'd be wasting my learning time instead of critiquing the artistic merit of my work. Ideas like appropriation in literature are absurd. If you can't write outside your experience, all that's left is memoir and fiction is dead. Idiocy.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.
This is a great post! A writing degree was helpful for me, and I'm sure there are many others it has helped, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. For me, I was stuck in my writing. There was a certain point I couldn't get past. My teachers helped me figure out what the block was and how to overcome it. And like you said, even though my writing changed, what is important to me within the writing has not.